THE Malaysian authorities are being discriminatory and ignorant in their treatment of transsexual woman Fatine, who is facing visa problems in the United Kingdom.
Instead of assisting Fatine in negotiating with the UK authorities, the Immigration director-general Datuk Abdul Rahman Othman has instead threatened her with stern action for overstaying in the UK. Abdul Rahman also declared that Fatine has brought “great shame” upon the nation not only for overstaying but by entering into a civil partnership with Briton, Ian Young.
Abdul Rahman appears to have completely ignored the basic facts surrounding Fatine’s situation. Unlike many Malaysians who overstay for economic reasons, Fatine reportedly obtained a Certificate of Approval from the UK Home Office to marry Young while on a visitor visa. Fatine’s subsequent application for leave to remain in the UK as Young’s civil partner was however denied due to the submission of an incorrect photo. Her second application was then rejected as her visitor visa had expired by that time. She now faces deportation to Malaysia pending her third application.
Far from being sympathetic towards Fatine’s plight, Abdul Rahman has instead singled her out from amongst thousands of overstaying Malaysians and castigated her publicly.
If our government can intervene on behalf of Malaysians even when they have potentially been involved in criminal activities abroad, why can’t they offer assistance in this case? Or at least sound more sympathetic?
Helping Malaysians
The Malaysian government and immigration authorities have frequently stepped in to assist Malaysians in tight spots abroad. To the credit of the Malaysian government, it has demonstrated an ability to look out for its citizens when they are in trouble overseas, even in remote areas.
When the Bangkok airports were shut down in 2008 due to protests, the government dispatched a special military aircraft to fly stranded Malaysians home. Military aircraft also brought Malaysian students in Padang, Indonesia home after the 2 Oct 2009 earthquake.
When Raja Munirah Raja Iskandar was sentenced to seven years imprisonment in Japan for attempting to smuggle syabu into the country, then Foreign Minister Datuk Seri Syed Hamid Albar took action. He ordered Malaysian embassy staff in Japan to visit Raja Munirah and gather information about her case. Malaysian embassy staff in Peru have also been tasked with looking after the welfare of Malaysians in jail who have been found guilty of drug charges.
If the government doesn’t turn its back even when Malaysians have been convicted of crimes abroad, then why the public dressing down of Fatine? Shouldn’t Abdul Rahman, and his staff, be thinking of ways to help her instead of clambering onto his moral high horse to condemn her for somehow “shaming” the nation?
Doesn’t Fatine have the same right of access to her government’s support as any other Malaysian? And if her own government can’t stand up for her, then who will?
And really, how has Fatine brought “great shame” to the nation? Could it be that the perceived shame is originating from prejudice towards Fatine who was registered at birth as Mohammed Fadzil Min Bahari?
Malaysian obstacle course
UK authorities say Fatine can reapply for leave to remain, however, she must do so from her country of origin. This would not pose a problem for many couples as the fact that Young and Fatine are in a civil partnership would be a strong factor in assuring a successful application. Given the circumstances, however, Fatine faces a Malaysian obstacle course if she wants to continue living with Young in the same country.
If Fatine’s passport is confiscated upon return, as threatened by Abdul Rahman, Fatine would not be able to apply to the UK Home Office for leave to remain.
If Young decides to live in Malaysia instead, Fatine and Young could potentially be prosecuted for “carnal intercourse” under section 377 of the Penal Code. Fatine has not undergone sex reassignment surgery.
Even if Fatine underwent surgery, she would not be allowed to change the status on her Malaysian identity card that says she is male.
Fatine’s civil partnership to Young would not be recognised in Malaysia.
Even if Fatine and Young were somehow registered as married, Young would still face hurdles in living and working here. Malaysia’s current laws do not grant a foreign husband automatic rights to work in Malaysia.
Even if Fatine and Young overcame all the above hurdles, they would still have to face discrimination and rejection from society.
Regardless of whether or not one agrees with Fatine’s choice as an adult to live as a woman in a mutually consenting relationship with Young, one should at least be able to sympathise with her glaring lack of options. Whether she chooses to continue facing deportation in the UK or to return to Malaysia, her future with Young is threatened.
As the Malay saying goes, “Seperti timun dengan durian, menggolek kena, digolek pun kena”. But the main reason Fatine finds herself in this situation isn’t the UK government’s bureaucracy. It’s the refusal of her government to lay aside its prejudices against minority groups like transsexuals, and assist and respect these citizens wherever they may be found. 
See also:
Fatine’s right to dignity
It’s Fatine’s choice
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Shahri says
The Nut Graph is at it again. It is obvious that your site has a liberal and atheist bias. Where is your respect towards the official religion of the country? He is not a woman and not a khunsa. And no, it;s not his ‘choice’. Why can’t you liberals respect what Allah has decided for us? For the sake of ideas of the west like ‘human rights’ and ‘freedom’, you are willing to turn what is haram into halal. Islam is the religion of the ummah, and Fadzil is part of this ummah, so his personal choices is our responsibility also as Muslims. We are responsible to Allah, it is our responsibility to correct what is wrong. You liberals will ever understand this concept.
Fadzil is a man. A man can’t marry another man. If we allow this, then what is next? Legalization of incest? Please think of the consequences before following your Western thinking blindly.
Jamaluddin says
Hey Shahri, doesn’t the Quran say that there is no compulsion? How can you force Fadzil to practise Islam when in his heart he does not believe in it? Who are you to decide for him? At the end of the day, it is he who will face God and not you on his behalf.
Does he choosing to not believe have any affect on your faith? It is the same human right that gives Fadzil to do whatever he wants and also YOU to believe in Islam. What if you were born in a country where the law was that everyone must be a Hindu? You would then demand for the liberals to fight for your right to be a Muslim!!
Your close-minded thinking shames all of us Muslims. We always quote all these things from the Quran claiming freedom and peace and whatnot, but when it comes down to practising it, never happens.
Just because Fadzil was born with the word Muslim on his identity card, it does not make him a Muslim by right. You only become Muslim when you truly believe and practise it. And it is obvious that he doesn’t, so does that still make him a Muslim? Who are you, Shahri, to decide for Fadzil what faith he belongs to? Why isn’t it his choice?
KY says
First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out — because I was not a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out — because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out — because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me — and there was no one left to speak out for me.
Human rights is the same right that gives you the freedom to be a Muslim. This freedom was fought for by the liberals of the past. What if Caesar or Hitler had his way and conquered the whole world and made everyone into Catholics and such? Who would you want to fight for your right to be a Muslim then? The liberals!
It is extremely sad when Muslims think they own the divine right to decide for others what faith to believe in, and at the same time condemn the west for introducing the idea of freedom of belief and religion.
To Shahri: You believe that a man cannot marry another man. Fine. But what gives you the right to impose that on someone else who does not believe in that rule?
Vin says
Shahri, please stop being a bigot and focus. If you despise “western ideas” so much, why don’t you get off your computer, which is a western idea, too? As well as a lot of other things — just revert back to jungle living.
And let’s get this straight, there are plenty of things done by straight couples that are “unnatural” too. Even masturbation is wrong in the eyes of Islam — so back off!
lezzo says
Shahri, please think of the consequences before following your bigoted thoughts so blindly.
Firstly, unless you have lived in Fatine’s body, and had her experiences, I don’t think you have any right to say that she is not a woman, or that it’s her choice or not.
Secondly, it is extremely frustrating that you can label human rights and freedom as ‘ideas of the west’. If you read the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, you’ll find that there is no distinction between their definition of a human being, be it from the east or west. So yes, tho it may surprise you, we here in the east also have the same human rights as those in the west. This includes Fatine and her right to be who she is.
Thirdly, the many countries that have legalized homosexuality have not legalized incest, and don’t see them anywhere near the same issue like you do. You’ll also find that, here in our beloved asian valued home of Malaysia, incest is a MUCH bigger, real serious problem than you could ever make transexuality / homosexuality out to be.
So please, get of your moral high horse and stop breeding hate and discrimination in the name of religion. Islam is a caring religion based on justice and equality, so try spread some of that instead eh?
Vikraman says
TNG has a liberal and atheist bias and I AM PROUD OF IT. Okay, Shahri, since Muslims are supposedly subject to so-and-so laws, what if Fatine decides to apostate? Does she then deserve to be treated in the way she wants to?
Cheng says
Mr Shahri seems to still be clinging to the woefully outdated notion that “because [insert diety of choice here] says so” is sufficient basis for moral judgement. Any student of basic philosophy can quickly point out that this is not only false, but a gross insult to human reason.
The fact of the matter is that unorthodox though Fatine’s lifestyle choices have been, they harm no-one. Even from the point of view of genetics, her/his (I’m sorry I’m really not sure what pronoun to use) homosexuality means that his/her genes have reached a dead end, and are of no threat to the human gene pool. How exactly does Fatine bring shame upon anyone?
On Malaysia? Religious conservatives and our very own politicians have already done a wonderful job of putting Malaysia in international news for all the worst reasons! The issue here is not how Fatine shames Malaysia, but how Malaysia has shamed Fatine.
On her family? Perhaps, if Fatine’s parents were really hoping for grandchildren, but that’s their own private issue. In any case, it’s not like Malaysia’s having trouble with population growth. If anything, Fatine should be applauded for her non-contribution to an over-populated world.
On herself? She’s living her life as she chooses, and she’s not harming anyone in the process. This is a lot more than can be said for certain narrow minded people who would seek to impose their scripture-inspired medieval lifestyle on a world that has moved on.
Before anyone had ever been Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Malaysian, Indonesian, British or what-have-you, they were *human* first. Datuk Abdul Rahman Othman would do well to consider that, before so quickly judging a man by the colour of his lip gloss.
Natalie says
Kudos to TNG for speaking up for human rights! The fundamentalists have been prejudiced against minorities for far too long, even of their religious denominations. Sure, Allah has forbidden you to change gender, but isn’t Allah the most forgiving? …
Aimran says
Why Fatine embarrasses us is because not so long ago, Britain wanted to enforce entry visas on Malaysians into the UK because too many Malaysians were overstaying. After much grovelling and feet-kissing, the Malaysian government managed to get the British to reconsider imposing entry visa for Malaysians into the UK.
His/her actions might have just jeopardised all of the government’s efforts and may inconvenience the thousands of Malaysians travelling to the UK. Yes, I agree that there might be underlying sexual discrimination here, but I doubt that is the reason at all.
ganesh says
Incest is not legal in the west. It’s time we Asians in general and Malaysians in particular come down from our high horses and discard myopic views about the evil, decadent west and the virtuous, moralled east.
Live and let live. It’s incredible that our government is willing to lend a hand in bringing the body of miscreants like Nordin Top [home], as well as expressing regret over his being shot, and yet not lend a helping hand to Fatine.
Lainie says
Shahri: Are you saying prejudice and ignorance are Eastern values?
Ayu says
Contrary to what some might believe, concepts like ‘human rights’ and ‘freedom’ aren’t Western innovations. They are extremely central to the human condition, as well as being core beliefs in Islam. “Let there be no compulsion in religion” is very clearly a statement that embodies freedom of religion.
If you’d like to talk about making what is haram or halal, there are a lot of Malaysian religious laws that do this. For instance, the Prophet Muhammad never forced anyone into his religion, neither did he force them to remain in Islam; this was never part of his Syariah, but yet the Malaysian religious authorities continue to forcefully prevent those who want to leave Islam from doing so.
You are right about one thing, though. We are all responsible to God for our words and actions. But I beg to differ that it is our responsibility to always correct what is wrong, because ideas of right and wrong are subjective. You cannot enforce your idea of right and wrong on someone who clearly does not agree with you. That’s oppression, also clearly prohibited in Islam.
Malaysian says
Shahri,
I can understand where you are coming from, but have you considered that some people may have been bought with hormonal/chemical distortions in their brain/body that gives rise to the situation? I used to share your stance, but have come to see it as a medical condition. Also, in Malay society of old (especially pre-independence), the acceptance of transexuals as Mak Andam and Mak Nyahs was prevalent.
Iran, very surprisingly, offers rights to people who ‘suffer’ under such condititions as Fatine. Please read Zainah Anwar’s article for reference.
AainaA says
Salaamun
@Shahri
The issue here is not with Allaah Tabaraka wa Ta`Ala. You are deciding for Fatine, in guise of supporting your ignorance of Islaam AdDeen by implicating the work of Allaah Tabaraka wa Ta`Ala as your own.
Do you literally ‘read’ the Qur’aanulQariim as being taught by Saidina Jibrael AlahisSalaam to Muhammad RasulAllaah Tabaraka wa Ta`Ala `AalahisSalaam, or do you read what is printed therein the paper pages without reflecting on the whole aspect of creation per se? Are Muslims in your country as backward in thinking and thoughts that one is incapable of foreseeing the imageries and metaphors Allaah Tabaraka wa Ta`Ala has shown in its 6,666 verses therein the Qur’aanulQariim?
Is this about Allaah Tabaraka wa Ta`Ala, HU’s Deen or your ego that is being bruised, all because you cannot comprehend the nature of ‘creation’ per se?
Fatine’s relationship with Allaah Tabaraka wa Ta`Ala is Fatine’s relationship. Your relationship with Allaah Tabaraka wa Ta`Ala is your relationship. Perceive and learn, or at best, put yourself in Fatine’s shoes, and try to be not only compassionate, but learn why Fatine is put therein in the first place !! Do not in your slight misprehension of Islaam AdDeen, and the Glory of Allaah Tabaraka wa Ta`Ala, incite HU’s wrath upon you, and your family!
Look at the WORLD, understand from seeing what is infront of you. The issue here is not Fatine, it is you for pointing fingers at Fatine, you who proclaim yourself Muslim have literally made a mockery of the Deen, and of yourself!
He who looks with his finite eye only sees finite things — bodies, colors or surfaces. He who looks with the eye of his hidden spirit {Basirah} sees the hidden things — spiritual beings, forms of the world of the absolute Imagination, jinns — all of which are still only created beings and therefore veils. But he who looks with his face, that is to say, his secret (sirr), sees the face which HU has in each thing; for, in truth, only Allaah Tabaraka wa Ta`Ala sees Allaah Tabaraka wa Ta`Ala, only Allaah Tabaraka wa Ta`Ala knows Allaah Tabaraka wa Ta`Ala… This is AtTauhiid – Divine Unity…
Wherethen is your AtTauhiid, and Aqiidah? Do you comprehend the nature of “MAN” in relation to what the Qur’aan has taught you? If you do not, then take leave and study – try to comprehend what Allaah Tabaraka wa Ta`Ala is teaching you via HU’s Qur’aanulQariim.
Liyana Y. says
Dear Shahri, you are right, we are responsible to Allah swt., who is the only One capable of judging us in time of akhirat. And you are right, it is our responsibility to correct what is wrong. But wouldn’t you say there is a lot wrong with ourselves as His ummah, and that is what we should correct first?
We do not know what Allah swt has planned for all of us, you, me, or Fatine. Chasing this situation into the ground will not be the solution because it is a symptom. Looking at the problems we have as an ummah, and improving ourselves for the future generation of Muslims, is what you should be focusing on, instead of worrying so much a “haram into halal” case that has now moved very far away.
Why seek to punish her, drag her back by her hair? Do you really think that is what Allah “has decided for us”? As long as she is always among mosques and Muslims (both of which exist in the UK, really), one day Fatine might see things “our” way on her own accord. Not like this.
Please think of the consequences before doing anything blindly.
I appreciate your perspective as a fellow Muslim, but felt like I needed to add mine too. So thanks for reading, Shahri, and to all Shahris, assalamualaikum.
Nicholas Aw says
In Malaysia, the Fatine case is indeed a very sensitive issue.The Malay proverb, “Seperti timun dengan durian, menggolek kena, digolek pun kena” does not only apply to Fatine but also to The Nut Graph and others who may want to comment on this issue, as can be seen from Shahri’s comment.
A lot of government decisions are politically and religiously influenced. Religion is seen as being “controlled” by man-made edicts where it should be actually a personal relationship with God. Religious “offences” usually involve persons who are in crisis with themselves. These “offences” do not hurt anyone else except those involved. However, the state is fearful that Fatine’s action may become a precedent and influence other Muslims.
Perhaps my comments too may not go down well with some Muslims. Let me clarify that I am not intruding into the official religion of the country, but rather sympathising with Fatine’s plight. The government’s assistance to Fatine would in fact show to the world that Malaysia practises Islam Hadari. “Losing” Fatine would in fact allow people of other faiths to perceive Islam as a tolerant religion.
True Malaysian says
Oh Shahri, you are a classic example of a Muslim who thinks he is God, the type that is constantly busy fault-finding and bloodthirsty, judge judge judge, anger anger anger, kill kill kill.
Fatine’s issue is far from allowing a man marrying another man … We’re not about to celebrate the occasion or promote more marriages like his. I’m sure he is suffering enough being shunned, but obviously, this is not enough for you. It’s about treating a person as a human being (and so, incest is never going to be legalised).
You … will perhaps never understand this concept. You would kill the whole world for the sake of your pride.
I don’t know why Fatine would want to come back to Malaysia.
Jen says
Shahri, why can’t you respect that religion is personal? How does Fatine’s sex change and decision to be a woman, even though she was born a man, affect you as a Muslim? Does it make you less Muslim? It is not YOUR responsibility to correct the wrong, it is Allah and Allah alone who will decide on the day Fatine breathes her last breath and meets his Maker. You are but HUMAN. YOU do not know what Allah has in store for her.
I think you should not caution The Nut Graph of thinking of the consequences of following Western ideas blindy, because you are in no position to preach. One is entitled to their opinion. Is tolerance not part of Islam? I believe it is. Kindly look at your own self before you try to “correct” others.
Yuki Choe says
I find comments such as Shahri’s very ignorant indeed. Ms Fatine is a beautiful lady who is born transsexual. It is a medical condition recognised by the World Health Organisation, by most medical professionals and those who have gone through studies on gender variations. It has nothing to do with “western†culture, and the condition is more common in more Asian countries than in the United States.
I hope Shahri would first study what is gender before redefining it to suit his own whims. Gender is not judged based on the penis or vagina, something Shahri should know since there are kunzas, and they will live by their gender, not sex organs. Gender is a complex combination of hormonal, biological, psychological, chromosomal and enzyme circumstances. There are be cisgender women, with 46xy chromosomes (male), but who are still able to [conceive] babies. There are also men with Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, where because of the dearth of androgen, they grow up 100% female.
There exist other conditions such as 5-Alpha Reductase Defiency, and also brains with cross-sexed neuron counts in the Lymbic Neucleus. A Gender Identity Disorder, which causes transsexualism, happens when the gender of a person is at intense odds their birth sexual structure, due to anomalies.
I commend Shahri for his defence of no man-to-man marriages based on his convictions. But by sexual orientation, this is a straight marriage. If Mr Young wanted to marry a man, he would have married a man, someone like him. In our eyes, it is obvious that Mr Young married a very attractive lady. And as mentioned above, Ms Fatine is a transsexual that is female. Perhaps Shahri is not exposed to sexual orientation, but I hope he would study on it from now on.
Another curious word he mentioned is about the need to correct what is wrong. There is truly nothing wrong here. It would be more effective if Shahri gave “informed adviceâ€, rather than dogmatic views [burdened by baggage].
It is easy, when we have no knowledge on something, to seek a higher authority to borrow power to condemn other. With prejudice and discrimination splattered across his comment, it is my personal wish that Shahri really looks at the mirror to see whether … he is just using religion as an excuse to justify his bigotry.
ashraf says
To begin with, I am not proud of any Malaysian government agency; in fact I even loathe the idea that being a Malaysian, I have to deal with them. That aside, pointing the finger solely at the government for Fatine’s problem is a glaring double standard by TNG.
I find the statement “It’s the refusal of her government to lay aside its prejudices against minority groups like transsexuals, and assist and respect these citizens wherever they may be found” as laughable. In this case, the UK government has to carry all the blame. If they preach what they say, i.e. human rights, why reject Fatine’s application just because of a wrong photo, knowing the consequence?
I think TNG should instead write about the double standard that the UK government is exercising in treating this case. I am sure there are many other similar cases … Please highlight the UK government’s blatant disregard of treating aliens, as we like to call them here …
Shahri says
I am not imposing my beliefs on anyone. It is you who are imposing your believes on me. Fadzil is born a Muslim , therefore he is a Muslim. His problem is my problem. I am only doing my responsibility as a fellow Muslim. If he wants to stay in England as a Christian or atheist, do it because he is not welcomed here.
Privacy and human rights is a western concept. It does not exist in Islamic culture. Only God’s rights and what is good for the ummah.
If it is a medical condition, then he should be treated, not encouraged by society. You don’t have to be a Muslim to have a moral stand. Men cannot marry other men. Same like brothers cannot marry their sisters. We might as well say incest, paedophilia and beastiality is okay because its their personal choice.
You have to be pleased with what God has given to you, the natural order of things.
Yuki Choe says
“I am not imposing my beliefs on anyone. It is you who are imposing your believes on me.”
Look who’s talking dearie. Did you read your first post here? You are imposing everything all the way as to say you are right and everybody is wrong. It is so unfortunate.
“Fadzil is born a Muslim , therefore he is a Muslim. His problem is my problem. I am only doing my responsibility as a fellow Muslim. If he wants to stay in England as a Christian or atheist, do it because he is not welcomed here.”
Another weird comment. Do you know what you are saying? That means a person that is a Muslim by mouth and not by heart is also Muslim. You are also indirectly implying that you need to control other Muslims to suit your fancy. And you are presenting a statement that reflects to those who practise any other religion other then Muslim is not welcome in this country. This is intentional show of bias.
“Privacy and human rights is a western concept. It does not exist in Islamic culture. Only God’s rights and what is good for the ummah.”
Nope. You have the right to do everything, even smoke! God offered to you a variety of food to choose from, He did not force you to eat only one meal did he? Did you miss your prayer today? Heck, it is written that men shall fall to hell because of his toungue. Yet you are wagging your cursing and prejudicial toungue everywhere. See, you have the right.
“If it is a medical condition, then he should be treated, not encouraged by society. You don’t have to be a Muslim to have a moral stand. Men cannot marry other men.”
She is already on treatment. That is why she is a she now. And you have yet to address all the facts presented in front of you. Why, reality is so hard to swallow is it not? Sigh.
“Same like brothers cannot marry their sisters. We might as well say incest, paedophilia and beastiality is okay because its their personal choice.”
Excuse me, you must be joking, right? Bestiality, paedophilia, incest… they are not exclusive to any sexual orientation and sexual identity. If that is your argument, then allowing you to marry a woman would also cause incest and pedophilia… wait a minute. That is exactly what is happening to straight [people] now!
“You have to be pleased with what God has given to you, the natural order of things.”
What is natural order? Define it, please. Because I see hate-mongering from you, which is not normal. I see ignorance in you, which is not normal. I see you running away from facts like a kid, which for me is not normal. I am sorry. But if these are the values you fight for: prejudice, discrimination, bias, ignorance, gossip, condemnation, hatred… I doubt much people would want to be on the same planet with you, as you represent a warlord.
Sabahan says
… Shahri, you are confused between Islam and man’s interpretation (which may be incorrect). You must know that Muslims do not agree on many issues. Maybe you don’t. Anyway, stay ignorant …
Yeo Kien Kiong says
Fadzil is born a human being. She and everyone else has the right to choose, the right to dignity. Anybody who believes in their god or gods should understand the meaning of happiness. If your neighbour (regardless of sexuality, culture or beliefs) is in trouble, would you hesitate to help? Wouldn’t that act be against your god?
anon says
Shahri:
> I am not imposing my beliefs on anyone. It is you who are imposing your believes on me.
Sure, we’ll continue then.
> Fadzil is born a Muslim , therefore he is a Muslim.
That’s your belief, and that is clearly something many here don’t share with you. So are you imposing your beliefs now on him?
> His problem is my problem. I am only doing my responsibility as a fellow Muslim.
That follows from your belief that because he’s born Muslim, he is forever so Muslim.
> If he wants to stay in England as a Christian or atheist, do it because he is not welcomed here.
He wants to stay in the UK, but nothing has been stated about him wanting to be Christian or be an atheist. But he is facing the possibility of being sent back, and so while you may not welcome him, he might be coming back anyway.
> Privacy and human rights is a western concept. It does not exist in Islamic culture. Only God’s rights and what is good for the ummah.
I don’t know enough to comment on that
> If it is a medical condition, then he should be treated, not encouraged by society.
And what makes you think it’s a medical condition?
> You don’t have to be a Muslim to have a moral stand. Men cannot marry other men. Same like brothers cannot marry their sisters.
And why can’t men marry other men? A belief again?
> We might as well say incest, paedophilia and beastiality is okay because its their personal choice.
Fair enough comment, with the exception of pedophilia because a child is generally not considered competent enough to have been said to have made a personal, informed choice.
> You have to be pleased with what God has given to you, the natural order of things.
Another belief again?
natalie says
“Privacy and human rights is a western concept. It does not exist in Islamic culture. Only God’s rights and what is good for the ummah.”
Shari, […] Read the Quran’s chapter An-Nisa (the Women). The entire chapter is about protecting women’s rights! Are women not human?
You are homophobic [and] you are using Islam as an excuse [for your homophobia]. […]
Sam says
One […] says Fatine brings “shame to the country”. Another […] from MACC says Teoh Beng Hock’s death is “a small case”. Power turns hearts into stone.
Petra says
Shahri, as a transsexual myself, I wish you would just leave us all alone and keep your over-zealous judgmental […] ideals to yourself. Hopefully some day, this world will be able to see that all we want to do is live our lives as normally as we can.
And though that involves changing our gender roles, we do not hurt anyone nor cause any disruption in the morals of society. It is only when society views us as taboo, we have to search for means to earn a living, whether it be moral or not. In the end, if we do choose an immoral life, it is due to the stubborness and prejudice of people like Shahri.
U-Jean says
“I am not imposing my beliefs on anyone. It is you who are imposing your beliefs on me.”
LMAO. A bit obvious that you are trying to impose your (a man can’t marry another man) beliefs of Fatine, is it not? […]
“Fadzil is born a Muslim , therefore he is a Muslim. His problem is my problem.”
[Is] Fatine asking you to speak on her behalf? Or are you speaking on behalf of God? You know exactly what God wants? That makes you the best person to tell Fatine what to do and what not to do?
“I am only doing my responsibility as a fellow Muslim. If he wants to stay in England as a Christian or atheist, do it because he is not welcomed here.”
It’s your responsibility as a Muslim? What about your responsibility as a human to respect other people’s choices?
“Privacy and human rights is a western concept. It does not exist in Islamic culture. Only God’s rights and what is good for the ummah.”
Are you serious? No privacy and human rights in Islam? […]
“If it is a medical condition, then he should be treated, not encouraged by society.”
This is the best you’ve said so far lah. Fatine should be treated! Rectify the incongruence. If she feels that a man’s body tak ngam, then change. As long as she’s happy, it has nothing to do with you.
“You don’t have to be a Muslim to have a moral stand.”
You [also] don’t have to be a non-Muslim to respect other people’s rights. […]
“Men cannot marry other men. Same like brothers cannot marry their sisters. We might as well say incest, paedophilia and beastiality is okay because its their personal choice.”
[…] Transgenderism, homosexuality, incest, paedophilia, and bestiality are different things. Therefore, we do not lump them together. To know whether it’s okay or not, we look at whether they violate someone else’s rights or not and whether informed consent was given.
“You have to be pleased with what God has given to you, the natural order of things.”
God (if God exists) gave us the power to make our own decisions. It’s only natural that we use it. We might not make the best or the right one, but we have the right to choose and no one should take that right away.
Jensen says
Shahri, it is obvious that you have a clear dislike of “liberal” views posted on The Nut Graph. Thank goodness for the concept of human rights and freedom of speech that form the very fabric of the internet that enable people like you and I to freely post our individual views on articles like these. After all, this is a platform for people to exchange mature views and not for pathetic condemnations and preachings. If you don’t like it, leave.
Otherwise, a nicely written article by the author in highlighting issues concerning our society’s minority group.
Anon200 says
Hey Shahri, why don’t you just let him be and let Allah deal with him then? Are his choices going to affect you in your afterlife?
HQA says
I found the comments very interesting but I wasn’t planning on commenting until I came across:
“Privacy and human rights is a western concept. It does not exist in Islamic culture. Only God’s rights and what is good for the ummah.”
I am sorry but we really need to be clear on our own religious values before even commenting on others. Human rights take precedence over God’s rights in Islam. Look it up, dear fellows. God will forgive his humans for not giving Him His rights, but he will NOT forgive a Muslim denying the rights of his fellow human beings. If a religion even recognises animal rights, it’s silly to expect that it won’t make room for human rights.
And privacy not a part of religion? Really? How come then public displays of affection between a married Muslim couple are not appreciated in most Muslim countries? Isn’t that promoting the idea of personal privacy?
Jamie Khoo says
Whoa… hold on there one second.
I believe we shouldn’t tie the western culture with “liberal thinking” aka “atheistic thinking” aka “human rights thinking”. As far as I know, many nations struggle with religion + governing issues too.
The US, for example, has this constant debate on just how much “Christianity” to inject into their governing system. Sure, there are some “liberal-minded/atheist” thinking individuals out there, but never once is the West fully atheistic. A classic example of a Christian “extremist” leader is Sarah Palin. Need I say more?
————————————————-
Having said that, there IS one difference between us and them. They advocate the idea of freedom of speech and freedom of expression. There’s no such thing as ISA or religious policing.
With such freedom, individuals like Shahri are allowed to practice their interpretation of Islam AND individuals like Fatine are allowed to practice their interpretation of Islam. Yet, we can all live peacefully in one nation.
But tell me why this isn’t the case in Malaysia? It is because there are individuals still dwelling on past issues.
Still dwelling on how our nation was founded on Chinese agreeing to the concept of Bumiputeras when our constitution was written, a.k.a. Ketuanan Melayu.
Still dwelling on how “communists” want to take over Malaysia.
Still dwelling on how feudalistic a nation should be to “protect Islam”.
My personal take on it? We have our past, but now is the present; and tomorrow the future. You simply have to stop living in the past.
B says
She IS a woman (even it is not written in her ID or birth certificate).
People should respect the feelings of others. Gender identity is much more complex than male or female.
nanthayo says
Excellent piece!
Again it comes down to the priorities of our government. We are even looking out for the welfare of the two Malaysians in Guantanamo but poor Fatine is ostracized for merely being different. That’s a very narrow tunnel our leaders are sitting in right now!
nanthayo says
@Aimran
Fatine’s case is receiving all this publicity because of the underlying sexual bias.
There are thousands of Malaysians working illegally in the UK and not to mention the occassional drug mule who gets busted. These are the reasons the UK is considering revoking our visa-less status. I beg to differ that Fatine’s case alone will jeopardise the luxury we enjoy as a member of the Commonwealth.
Nurra says
Islamic culture? Heh. Eating ketupat and rendang on Hari Raya is not in Islamic culture as well. There are no lemangs and lontongs during the Prophet’s time. So Shari, stop being a hypocrite. […]
Kate Green, Zombie Shooter says
Eh Shahri, Zul Noordin said that she is a khunsa…
maaysiaboleh says
Shari, stop wasting your time, haven’t you heard of the equal rights religion? All have rights to do anything they like, be it with their hair, mouth, breasts, tummy and also butts. They can preach and practice anything, as long as it’s current and [in vogue]. It’s now the vogue to be gay, it’s in to be lesbian, it’s trendy not to practice the ancient main religion, be it Islam, Christianity or others.
But wait, sometime in the future, someone might just want to “do it” with a goat and turn a sexy white billy goat as his life partner. Wonder what these “equal rights” [believers] are gonna say. I don’t think we have the right to impose our Muslim, Christian, Hindu “morals” onto the goat. Heck, it’s not even linked to syariah or the moral court system. By then, we are [screwed] already lah.
Azizi Khan says
[…]
Look at PAS, Umno, all religious authorties. They all behave as if it’s *their* God-given right to seek, prosecute and in many instances punish what “in their opinion” is incorrect. Verses in the Quran are conveniently thrown here and there to keep the simple minds happy.
We can only sympathise [with people] who will never be more than what they are told they could be. How many Muslims in Malaysia can actually read and understand the Quran? Everything is regurgitated from some imam or mufti with dubious qualifications.
Is it a wonder that large number of Malaysian Muslims are munafiq (hypocrites) who say one thing and do another? Where are the Malaysian Muslims who do not put up for corruption, cheating and lies? No, rather than fight for the important stuff – they lead witch hunts and lynch mobs to save souls. This is the quality of many Malaysian Muslims.
Malaysian Muslims yearn for the golden age of Islamic civilization but conveniently forget that the peak of the civilization was achieved with the help of non-Muslims. While Islam is a very peaceful religion, its practitioners have been quick to even fight wars over it, putting the blame on God. How many Muslims understand that the practice of peace, freedom, justice, and order is the basis of Western and Eastern philosophy and laws? But for a lot of Muslims that is not enough – they want a stamp on it saying that it is Islamic before they accept it.
Fundamentally, Fadzil is a human being. If you cannot treat a fellow human being with care – you cannot count yourself as a human being, much less a Muslim.
I sometimes wonder about my fellow Muslims. They accept God created heaven and earth, animals and plants. But they forget God created people like Fadzil and gave his urges – just like you and me. Right or wrong, it’s his choice. Is it better to be a true Muslim to accept his choice or to banish him to oblivion ?
That, my friends, is the right question.
AK
hadi says
Surah AL- Baqarah Translation ABDLH.YUSUF ALI
For our reference:
002.006-:
As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.
002.007
Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).
002.008
Of the people there are some who say: “We believe in Allah and the Last Day;†but they do not (really) believe.
002.009
Fain would they deceive Allah and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves, and realise (it) not!
002.010
In their hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease: And grievous is the penalty they (incur), because they are false (to themselves).
002.011
When it is said to them: “Make not mischief on the earth,†they say: “Why, we only Want to make peace!â€
002.012
Of a surety, they are the ones who make mischief, but they realise (it) not.
002.013
When it is said to them: “Believe as the others believe:†They say: “Shall we believe as the fools believe?†Nay, of a surety they are the fools, but they do not know.
002.014
When they meet those who believe, they say: “We believe;†but when they are alone with their evil ones, they say: “We are really with you: We (were) only jesting.â€
002.015
Allah will throw back their mockery on them, and give them rope in their trespasses; so they will wander like blind ones (To and fro).
002.016
These are they who have bartered Guidance for error: But their traffic is profitless, and they have lost true direction.
cakapbalik says
I believe it is more important to be human than religious. I do not agree when someone said by carrying this article, The Nut Graph is liberal with an atheist bias.
I think by carrying this article The Nut Graph simply show they are human and I applauded them for that.
(PS – I am not a big fan of The Nut Graph and I seldom read it.)
Somebody asked, “Where is your respect towards the official religion of the country? He is not a woman and not a khunsa. And no, it’s not his ‘choice’. Why can’t you liberals respect what Allah has decided for us?â€
We have to understand in this country that Muslims have no choice. Once you are born Muslim, you remain a Muslim. Give a chance for Muslims to come out from the religion and do what their hearts desire. Then perhaps that someone will not be offended when someone like Fatine comes along. Then someone could proudly say Fatine is not a Muslim like me, Fatine is a murtad and she can do whatever she wants.
Yet the government will not allow Muslims to come out from their religion. Muslims in this country are in a cage and they do not have any choices except to follow rules and regulations that have been set up the religious bodies. (Look at the Lina Joy case – why force someone to be in the religion they do not want to be?)
Personally I believe in the famous line of Mahatma Gandhi who said that religion is a personal relationship between man and God.
If that someone believes Fatine has done wrong in the God’s eyes, let God punish her.
God is not so powerless that He needs humans to punish for Him. Why are we playing God?
We have no right to judge Fatine. We have no right to punish her. We are not angels ourselves. I am sure we have our own sins.
Personally I believe God is so forgiving. I believe God is not so judging . It is we who are not so forgiving. It is we who love to judge. Humanity is slowly dying.
Max says
Remember Sufiah Yusof the Math genius turned [sex worker]? Our very own Pemuda Umno went to her aid. What about Fatine? Where are they now?
Hoyohoyo says
Love how TNG is being liberal, nothing wrong with it.
I’m just not sure if it is wise to “air” one’s ID card for I believe a person’s ID number should be his/her own privacy. Letting the public know your ID number may be potentially harmful as one can access various information by your ID number. Some examples include your traffic summons and voting status.
Editor’s note: We appreciate your concern, but we assure all readers that we have permission to use all images that we publish on this website. When the images are not watermarked to The Nut Graph, they are public domain. In this case, the image you are referring to is a stock image taken from the Jabatan Pendaftaran Negara website – http://www.jpn.gov.my/
Shanon Shah
Columns and Comments Editor
westerner5213 says
The free choice, atheist brigade insist that natural reproduction is a myth, and that marriage as an institution to raise children is not important. I disagree.
If gender benders wish to deny nature then I agree that is their business in the privacy of their own homes.
However, hijacking the institution of marriage and political campaigning for their wackiness to be considered normal is doing harm to the young and easily influenced teens.
Secondly, copying countries that are committing national suicide, such as Britain, cannot be good for Malaysia.
Khairi says
Hi,
I agree with Shahri.
We can not allow a mistake. It will lead to more. It is a simple rule of thumb.
Fatine had decided an abnormal way of living. We can’t just accept it, but correct it.
Therefore, gentlemen, to allow her to fulfill her wants easily is a nod of acceptance, not correction.
Correction with punishment, I think, is necessary.
It is not because we hate her, but as a lesson for her and others. Because we love her.
Many “quarantine” methods can be done instead of extreme punishment and easy acceptance. Islam is always at the middle.
🙂
Yuki Choe says
[Some here] have just called a [normal medical] condition (transsexualism) abnormal and unnatural. […] Please consider reality before you so cleverly act like expert judges. Is reality so frightening to you? And since you so cleverly are using Western/religious right fundamentalism by saying they are “hijacking” marriage, can you please tell me what that means? They stopped you from getting married is it? Please go read more on gender studies before making a mockery out of Malaysia. Yes, whether you like it or not, UK, Netherlands, Spain, France and a lot more are living in prosperity and friendship because they embrace differences. I cannot say the same for [the] hate-mongering here. There is no “morality” involved at all when the topic is on sexual orientation and sexual identity. What is immoral is […] making the rest of Malaysia an international joke!
Antares says
It’s obvious that Malaysia is suffering from a terminal case of obsolete software problems. Those in government appear to be trapped in a 19th century timewarp and cling on to a Victorian view of sexual mores that barely conceal a pathological compulsion to control the private lives of free citizens – instead of controlling their own base instincts to accumulate money and power by devious means. I’m really sorry to hear about Fatine’s visa hassles. She sounds like a very nice person who just happens to be a female soul trapped in a male body. I trust that all this publicity will help rather than hurt her cause, and that the British authorities will do the civilised thing and allow her to live in the UK with her husband.
SkyCrawler says
I agree with Shahri at a certain point. It is his responsibility to correct other Muslims’ mistakes. However, the Malaysian govt should not put the blame on Fatine. Allah is the most Forgiving, we all know that. What we should do is accept her back into the society and guide her towards the right path. Forcing her to dress up like a man when she is a woman inside will not help. It makes matter worse. I agree with Khairi with his statement.
Let’s not simply judge and condemn with words with no action taken, shall we?
berita hairan says
“For the sake of ideas of the west like ‘human rights’ and ‘freedom’…”
Are you claiming that concepts like human rights and freedom do not exist in this country or in certain religions?
Norly M* says
Dear En Shahri,
Why are you so angry? Why does Fatine touch such a raw nerve in you? I wonder if the reason is of more personal experience rather than fighting to uphold the “beliefs and moral standings” as dictated in by you. Such anger is not good. […] Unless you’re a scholar in Islamic teachings (preferably with a degree from Al-Azhar University), do not go around saying things that will only backlash at you. The era of witch hunting is long gone.
Nik says
Fatine, looks like you’re in deep [trouble]. It’s all right, just be patient. If you wanna be so-called ‘sesat’, the Mighty Allah will show you the sesat way. All the best to you Fatine!
11;11 says
Life is about fluidity and change. It is sad to see some people are already brain dead and stopped evolving. They can’t accept new ideas and changes, rather are stuck happily in quicksand. Well, bon voyage, have fun in your imaginary utopia.
Alicia says
@Khairi
“Hi,
I agree with Shahri.
We can not allow a mistake. It will lead to more. It is a simple rule of thumb.”
– Have you never made a mistake in your life? And in what terms is changing herself in the way she wants to without hurting you or anybody else a mistake? Do not define “mistake” in your own terms and impose it on others
“Fatine had decided an abnormal way of living. We can’t just accept it, but correct it.”
– In what or whose terms is it abnormal? Islam? Your terms? If she considered herself as a Muslim, she would not have embraced her sexuality now. So clearly this does not apply to her. In science, transsexuality/homosexuality is not abnormal.
“Therefore, gentlemen, to allow her to fulfill her wants easily is a nod of acceptance, not correction.”
– There are many things that need to be corrected in our government too, should we start now? What about taking away Malay [Malaysian] rights? Because other races ain’t going to accept it so let’s do as you suggest, correct it. […]
“Correction with punishment, I think, is necessary.”
I think it is not.
“It is not because we hate her, but as a lesson for her and others. Because we love her.”
– What lesson? Who are you to judge her and decide that she needs to be taught how to live her life?
“Many ‘quarantine’ methods can be done instead of extreme punishment and easy acceptance. Islam is always at the middle.”
– Islam is always in the middle? Are you saying other religions are at the extremes?
Khairi says
Hi Alicia,
I know that the case is more complicated than what I may currently understand. I could be wrong, or right. It is the matter of how we look at the problem right now.
I am trying to be as honest as possible, which means, even though I am a Muslim, I will try to free myself from being pro-Islam. After all, we are all humans who are stinky in the morning.
It is a mistake for a girl to live in a man’s body. It is obvious. Is it God’s mistake? Or rather I could say it is a natural probability that God has embedded in this wonderful life at the beginning of creation like a probability of a fetus to be born spastic.
The transsexual, I can define as “disabled” in terms of the soul if the word abnormal is unaccepted. […] And abnormal shouldn’t be labeled as bad, either.
Some said she was “khunsa” who has both sex units. Some said she was a man. Which side she falls in, still it is a mistake for a girl to live in a man’s body. She has to face the fact.
With this born-with-it mistake, of course, some limitations will be there for her, unfortunately. It is as normal as a disabled person who cannot do things normally. And I am sorry to define it as a punishment. Rather, it is a limitation (or a lesson?) inflicted so that we can control a “bapok-pondan” problem, whereas a simple nod or acceptance will worsen this scenario.
We have to face the fact that some transsexuals are not genuinely “khunsa” like Fatine. Most or some of them have problems of a different kind, maybe they are rebels, parents misteaching, friends’ persuasion, environments etc. If we simply accept Fatine in society as normal, as a girl, I am afraid, we might open a big chance for the “false” Fatine. Right?
To unwelcome her to come back home, in my opinion, is not right either. As I said, some quarantine methods must be constructed. This is localized problem, treat it where it is. She deserves to live the way she wants, however, becoming part of the society, she has eligibility to ensure the society’s health. Does she want all men to be like her? I believe she doesn’t.
Can’t she just wear a man’s suit for a day to come back in Malaysia, and live silently with Young in their house somewhere in Malaysia without trying to be a girl [in front of Immigration]?
Yuki Choe says
“To unwelcome her to come back home, in my opinion, is not right either. As I said, some quarantine methods must be constructed. This is localized problem, treat it where it is. She deserves to live the way she wants, however, becoming part of the society, she has eligibility to ensure the society’s health. Does she want all men to be like her? I believe she doesn’t.”
“With this born-with-it mistake, of course, some limitations will be there for her, unfortunately. It is as normal as a disabled person who cannot do things normally. And I am sorry to define it as a punishment. Rather, it is a limitation (or a lesson?) inflicted so that we can control a ‘bapok-pondan’ problem, whereas a simple nod or acceptance will worsen this scenario.”
You are misrepresenting us. Transsexualism is not abnormal and not a disability. Read, read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexualism
And you are regressing into the argument above that Fatine is [somehow] having a sickness that needs to be quarantined? What has your manhood and her womanhood have to do with society’s health? Are you really that crazy to think that people can just get “infected” by us?
You think of our limitations. You are dead wrong. I function in society just like anyone else. Fatine functions in society just like anyone else. It is people like you who continue to attempt to hijack our lives. Control the “bapok-pondan” problem? Your use of [such] terms already outlines your mentality.
[I’d] rather be a “bapok-pondan” than be you. […] I talk facts, think rationally and behave with full humanity. Shame on you.
Hafidz Baharom says
I’m going to weigh in on this topic.
Fatine made a choice. Fatine is an individual, therefore her choice is hers alone, and since she married Ian Young, a person living in the United Kingdom, her choice has no affect whatsoever on any of the 27 million people in [Malaysia].
To each his [or her] own. Fatine chose to be a woman at 17 after much deliberation, I am sure. I am also sure that NOT all men will be like Fatine, because each person has their own God-given minds and will therefore use it (hopefully) for bearing for their own lives.
What we have with Fatine is a case of an individual, fighting for the freedom to stay together with her husband, but is now threatened and verbally abused for who she is.
Does this sound right to anyone?
As for the whole “quarantine” idea not being a form of “extensive” punishment, I call that argument [no different] with saying that the Jews relished the thought of lounging around in prison camps all day during Nazi Germany.
Or perhaps how unlawful detainees just “love” being “quarantined” in Kamunting.
Or perhaps how all those illegal immigrants waiting to go back are not actually suffering from lack of resources in their detention camps.
It’s a stupid argument and it’s unconstitutional.
As for The Nut Graph having a liberal and atheist bias, who do you think it was that printed an article defending your Tok Guru?
The atheist and liberals?
And human rights is not a Western nor an Eastern ideal. It’s a universal one.
Muslim says
[…] Shahri, masalah Fatine masalah kau ye? Yang masalah rogol anak kandung, anak tiri, ragut, ugut bangsa lain, rasuah semua tu macam mana? Masalah siapa pulak tu? Langsung tadak sapa nak peduli. Bab Fatine ni pulak, sibuk je nak enter frame. Pandangan liberal dan atheis kau tuduh orang. Aku rasa kau ada masalah sebab kau fitnah The Nut Graph. Fitnah lebih buruk dari bunuh dalam Islam. Sekarang masalah kau dah jadi masalah aku sebab aku pun Muslim juga. Ya Allah! Shahri, macam mana ni? Aku dah bertanggungjawab membetulkan kau. Taubatlah Shahri…please.
elaineij says
I think at the end of the day, Fatine has no problem about herself. But some of us have a problem with her because in her, all our shadows and sins are exposed. Basically we (some of us) are not at home with our own bodies and sexual orientation or sexuality. We pretend to be innocent before one another and before God. We are truly ashamed of ourselves.
jenni says
Fatine is a beautiful woman, and she is very lucky to have found a man who truly loves her. Those who disagree should keep their nose out of her business and let her get on with her life. I hope the UK will come to its senses and grant Ian and Fatine the opportunity to fulfill their committment to each other.